SSBM Ruleset for LANified! 2012

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SSBM Ruleset for LANified! 2012

Postby Dan » Sat May 05, 2012 10:57 pm

Hi,

Sorry if this isn't the most appropriately area to post on. A few of us calgary smashers saw the poster for the 2012 event and that it had included Smash (coincidentally we were coming back from a smashfest at the UofC and putting put our own posters for a future tourney). I was wondering who is running melee and if there is wiggle room for the ruleset. Most smashers are accustom to the ruleset similar to the tourney one http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=313252. Obviously it is impossible to adhere to everything in there as people in calgary don't even do so because of limitations. That being said, some smashers are a bit weary of going because of the current ruleset. Again a complete overhaul to the regular tourney ruleset is not feasible, but I'm wondering if there is any wiggle for slight rule changes (ie. that it is 1v1 being the most important). A few of us would be glad to help facilitate the event, and some of us can bring full setups/recording equipment. That being said, this is your organized tourney so ultimately it is up to you to decide how you want to run it.
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Re: SSBM Ruleset for LANified! 2012

Postby BloodyIron » Sun May 06, 2012 3:29 pm

Hi Dan,

I'm going to take a look at what you have linked to.

So you said that 1v1 as opposed to 4-player FFA is your concern, am I reading that correctly?

What other concerns do you have?

I'll definately be glad to answer all your questions. We put a lot of work into our tournament formats. Depending on your concerns we may or may not be able to accommodate, but I can explain why we cannot in certain spots (when I hear the rest of your concerns).

It's really cool that you guys are interested, we put these events together for fans such as yourself :)
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Re: SSBM Ruleset for LANified! 2012

Postby BloodyIron » Sun May 06, 2012 3:49 pm

I'm also going to move this to the proper section of the forum. Not a big deal, but this is more discussion than necessarily feedback. :P
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Re: SSBM Ruleset for LANified! 2012

Postby Dan » Sun May 06, 2012 8:36 pm

INCOMING WALL OF TEXT, I APOLOGIZE:

Well obviously there's no way to follow all the regular tournament rules. It does exist to help weed out issues that will arise (and has so in the past) because of tournament rules that were overlooked in the past. But in the end I get guess it's highly dependent on how many people sign up and the amount of setups/time. I think any type of smash tournament should be 1v1 as it's the standard for any player. FFA is never played in tournaments because of the usual "problems" for FFA such as too chaotic, ganging up etc. I mean you would never have SC2 FFA format in tourney. That is probably the number one priority. The next few is stagelist (yet to be detailed) and unlockable characters. The current common ruleset stagelist is small for various reasons, but most people in the smash community would be fine with a more liberal stagelist- you can easily search for previous MLG stagelist. It might not be ideal to include all stages because some current banned stages have abuses/infinites that players in calgary do know how to perform. The unlockable characters rule is also a bit weird as generally any character can be used, simply because there is no reason not to. Unlockable characters are not better than available characters, and it adds variety to the games. Although maybe there is some reason behind it for this tournament that I overlooked. If there is, please let me know! I'd say those are the biggest things that are standard and should be kept in a smash tourney. The last two concepts of stagelist and unlockables can be implemented easily without compromising timings. The 1v1 formant is probably of the utmost importance. Looking at the schedule, it says SSBM is 3 hours. It's still dependent on the number of entrants/setups, but even a Bo1 1v1 would be better.Double elimination is also standard and if possible should be accommodated. From previous tournaments in calgary, I would say with 3 hours you have even enough time to do a the current standard of Bo3 double elimination with Bo5 in finals & grand finals. Calgary had a tourney over a month ago where 18 people showed up for melee http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=322038 which was a random bracket double elimination bo3, bo5 finals & grand finals. It was completed in just over 3 hours with 3 TV/Setups IRCC. So I'd say it depends on how many TVs there will be (setup cap is not a problem, calgary smashers often bring them to help in a tournament if needed). I would probably say if all that could be implement then that would be the ideal. These aren't just the rules I'm use to, practically all smash players adhere to them. Now most of us would be just fine with something in between because obviously there are limitations. I'd also suggest that when the rules are finalized that you can post/advertise to smashboards, where most smash players go to check for tourneys. You can find it the Canada listings here:http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=51&prefixid=Canada. I wouldn't suggest doing so before finalizing the rules because some players, for a lack of better term, are "rule nazies." Nevertheless I'm sure smash players appreciate any type of event. Thanks for your time and your willingness to accommodate. I'm willing to answer any questions and offer reasonings for rules.
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Re: SSBM Ruleset for LANified! 2012

Postby BloodyIron » Sun May 06, 2012 10:26 pm

I'm doing to read all this, but please, as a heads up. To avoid me ACCIDENTALLY deleting and banning you thinking you are spam, please avoid a wall of text. We are getting a fair bit of bots lately we are trying to deal with, and mistakes happen.

IF I ACCIDENTALLY BAN YOU, please contact me on another account and IP so I can unban you.

Sorry in advance (reading now)


Dan wrote:INCOMING WALL OF TEXT, I APOLOGIZE:

Well obviously there's no way to follow all the regular tournament rules. It does exist to help weed out issues that will arise (and has so in the past) because of tournament rules that were overlooked in the past. But in the end I get guess it's highly dependent on how many people sign up and the amount of setups/time. I think any type of smash tournament should be 1v1 as it's the standard for any player. FFA is never played in tournaments because of the usual "problems" for FFA such as too chaotic, ganging up etc. I mean you would never have SC2 FFA format in tourney. That is probably the number one priority. The next few is stagelist (yet to be detailed) and unlockable characters. The current common ruleset stagelist is small for various reasons, but most people in the smash community would be fine with a more liberal stagelist- you can easily search for previous MLG stagelist. It might not be ideal to include all stages because some current banned stages have abuses/infinites that players in calgary do know how to perform. The unlockable characters rule is also a bit weird as generally any character can be used, simply because there is no reason not to. Unlockable characters are not better than available characters, and it adds variety to the games. Although maybe there is some reason behind it for this tournament that I overlooked. If there is, please let me know! I'd say those are the biggest things that are standard and should be kept in a smash tourney. The last two concepts of stagelist and unlockables can be implemented easily without compromising timings. The 1v1 formant is probably of the utmost importance. Looking at the schedule, it says SSBM is 3 hours. It's still dependent on the number of entrants/setups, but even a Bo1 1v1 would be better.Double elimination is also standard and if possible should be accommodated. From previous tournaments in calgary, I would say with 3 hours you have even enough time to do a the current standard of Bo3 double elimination with Bo5 in finals & grand finals. Calgary had a tourney over a month ago where 18 people showed up for melee http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=322038 which was a random bracket double elimination bo3, bo5 finals & grand finals. It was completed in just over 3 hours with 3 TV/Setups IRCC. So I'd say it depends on how many TVs there will be (setup cap is not a problem, calgary smashers often bring them to help in a tournament if needed). I would probably say if all that could be implement then that would be the ideal. These aren't just the rules I'm use to, practically all smash players adhere to them. Now most of us would be just fine with something in between because obviously there are limitations. I'd also suggest that when the rules are finalized that you can post/advertise to smashboards, where most smash players go to check for tourneys. You can find it the Canada listings here:http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=51&prefixid=Canada. I wouldn't suggest doing so before finalizing the rules because some players, for a lack of better term, are "rule nazies." Nevertheless I'm sure smash players appreciate any type of event. Thanks for your time and your willingness to accommodate. I'm willing to answer any questions and offer reasonings for rules.
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Re: SSBM Ruleset for LANified! 2012

Postby BloodyIron » Sun May 06, 2012 11:13 pm

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your input. I do appreciate it. I'm going to revisit it.

Our current format isn't necessarily rigid, we just based it off of what knowledge (almost 0) we had about the game. We were trying to take safe initial design steps. As such the first thing I plan to visit is switching from 4 player FFA to something along the lines of 1v1. In retro spect 3hours is too short of a budget, I feel we can afford more, and as such switching to a 1v1 format of sorts is first slated. When defining the rules we first try to take all the details we can about what is fair in the scene, and then figure out ways to tailor it the way we like it. During this process we calculate the tournament time length, and if it becomes potentially a problem we go back to tweak it further.

I'm probably going to address this tomorrow. At this point it is very likely to see at least one major rule update for SSB:M. With the possibility of other adjustments.

Levels and unlocked chars we will try to be really catuious about though. I totally hear what you are saying about infinites on levels. While I may not know how to do them myself, I know Nintendo didn't exactly test for such things during the GC era.

To re-iterate on our values. Fun is important, but we want to make sure that our touurnaments are properly designed. Whatever service we offer, we work really hard to make sure it's high quality. And if you feel that you aren't getting that quality we really need you to let us know.


As a side note, how many people do you know interested in coming?

Since we cannot offer prepay for the console tourneys just yet, we would appreciate if you could tell people to sign up who are interested in coming.

Dan wrote:INCOMING WALL OF TEXT, I APOLOGIZE:

Well obviously there's no way to follow all the regular tournament rules. It does exist to help weed out issues that will arise (and has so in the past) because of tournament rules that were overlooked in the past. But in the end I get guess it's highly dependent on how many people sign up and the amount of setups/time. I think any type of smash tournament should be 1v1 as it's the standard for any player. FFA is never played in tournaments because of the usual "problems" for FFA such as too chaotic, ganging up etc. I mean you would never have SC2 FFA format in tourney. That is probably the number one priority. The next few is stagelist (yet to be detailed) and unlockable characters. The current common ruleset stagelist is small for various reasons, but most people in the smash community would be fine with a more liberal stagelist- you can easily search for previous MLG stagelist. It might not be ideal to include all stages because some current banned stages have abuses/infinites that players in calgary do know how to perform. The unlockable characters rule is also a bit weird as generally any character can be used, simply because there is no reason not to. Unlockable characters are not better than available characters, and it adds variety to the games. Although maybe there is some reason behind it for this tournament that I overlooked. If there is, please let me know! I'd say those are the biggest things that are standard and should be kept in a smash tourney. The last two concepts of stagelist and unlockables can be implemented easily without compromising timings. The 1v1 formant is probably of the utmost importance. Looking at the schedule, it says SSBM is 3 hours. It's still dependent on the number of entrants/setups, but even a Bo1 1v1 would be better.Double elimination is also standard and if possible should be accommodated. From previous tournaments in calgary, I would say with 3 hours you have even enough time to do a the current standard of Bo3 double elimination with Bo5 in finals & grand finals. Calgary had a tourney over a month ago where 18 people showed up for melee http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=322038 which was a random bracket double elimination bo3, bo5 finals & grand finals. It was completed in just over 3 hours with 3 TV/Setups IRCC. So I'd say it depends on how many TVs there will be (setup cap is not a problem, calgary smashers often bring them to help in a tournament if needed). I would probably say if all that could be implement then that would be the ideal. These aren't just the rules I'm use to, practically all smash players adhere to them. Now most of us would be just fine with something in between because obviously there are limitations. I'd also suggest that when the rules are finalized that you can post/advertise to smashboards, where most smash players go to check for tourneys. You can find it the Canada listings here:http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=51&prefixid=Canada. I wouldn't suggest doing so before finalizing the rules because some players, for a lack of better term, are "rule nazies." Nevertheless I'm sure smash players appreciate any type of event. Thanks for your time and your willingness to accommodate. I'm willing to answer any questions and offer reasonings for rules.
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Re: SSBM Ruleset for LANified! 2012

Postby Dan » Mon May 07, 2012 1:25 am

Having 1v1 is a great start. Personally I would be fine with just available characters because I don't main unlockable characters, but a few calgarians do. From my prospective, I've just never thought about it because it's always been standard since the beginning of the game from casual to top players. In this case unlocked characters are nothing "special" or great, they are just like regular available characters. I'm curious if there is any particular reason as to why unlocked characters wouldn't be allowed? Stagelist and stagelist method of selection for a match is something that you should look at. I'd say as long as you don't allow stages with infinites/abuses you'll be OK. An example of an infinite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipKBGW_TjII (funny thing is Fox is responsible for quite a lot of the infinites). Of course I'd be fine with it because one of my mains is Fox and I can infinite/abuse stages haha 8-) . All in all, if there is time and enough setups, there is no reason not to do a few of the things such as double elimination or bo3 bracket /bo5 final s& grand finals. In the end, I think it will end up being something in-between. As for attendees, everyone is generally interested, the issue is usually whether they are free and see that it's worth going to. If your goal is to maximize attendees then including Brawl (maybe for the future?) is probably a smart move. Since this is the first time you are hosting melee, I wouldn't aim high. I'd be surprised if there are more than 30 players, but I'd also be surprised if there is less than 10. These are just guesstimates from recent tourneys so don't take my word for it. :roll: I will say that the prize pool is attractive and might convince more people to show. That's why I highly suggest posting it in the Canadian tourney listings on smashboards once the rules are finalize (I'm probably reducing my chances of finish top 3 :cry: ).Lastly, I forgot the most touchy subject, which is items. The only thing that is true about the old joke of "No items, Fox only, Final Destination" is the no items (for obvious reasons). Whatever is decided for the final rules, let me know how it goes! Also, a VERY NICE and simpler compact explanation of current ruleset for reference (not the proposed tentative 2012 one but the currently most used to one and most recommended at the moment): http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8981808&postcount=1
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Re: SSBM Ruleset for LANified! 2012

Postby BloodyIron » Wed May 09, 2012 11:07 am

Hi Dan,

We are likely to re-visit the rules. You will probably see an announcement about it when we are complete with such.


Thanks,
BloodyIron


Dan wrote:Having 1v1 is a great start. Personally I would be fine with just available characters because I don't main unlockable characters, but a few calgarians do. From my prospective, I've just never thought about it because it's always been standard since the beginning of the game from casual to top players. In this case unlocked characters are nothing "special" or great, they are just like regular available characters. I'm curious if there is any particular reason as to why unlocked characters wouldn't be allowed? Stagelist and stagelist method of selection for a match is something that you should look at. I'd say as long as you don't allow stages with infinites/abuses you'll be OK. An example of an infinite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipKBGW_TjII (funny thing is Fox is responsible for quite a lot of the infinites). Of course I'd be fine with it because one of my mains is Fox and I can infinite/abuse stages haha 8-) . All in all, if there is time and enough setups, there is no reason not to do a few of the things such as double elimination or bo3 bracket /bo5 final s& grand finals. In the end, I think it will end up being something in-between. As for attendees, everyone is generally interested, the issue is usually whether they are free and see that it's worth going to. If your goal is to maximize attendees then including Brawl (maybe for the future?) is probably a smart move. Since this is the first time you are hosting melee, I wouldn't aim high. I'd be surprised if there are more than 30 players, but I'd also be surprised if there is less than 10. These are just guesstimates from recent tourneys so don't take my word for it. :roll: I will say that the prize pool is attractive and might convince more people to show. That's why I highly suggest posting it in the Canadian tourney listings on smashboards once the rules are finalize (I'm probably reducing my chances of finish top 3 :cry: ).Lastly, I forgot the most touchy subject, which is items. The only thing that is true about the old joke of "No items, Fox only, Final Destination" is the no items (for obvious reasons). Whatever is decided for the final rules, let me know how it goes! Also, a VERY NICE and simpler compact explanation of current ruleset for reference (not the proposed tentative 2012 one but the currently most used to one and most recommended at the moment): http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8981808&postcount=1
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